Support TriumphTalk by becoming a Premium Member. I got exactly 3.8 liters while doing so that I duly replaced with 4 liters of clean new oil as stated in the manual. Price. (Proceed to hurl salt at me! Offering excellent high mileage engine protection. The Thunderbird Sport rides more smoothly than the base model, and absorbs bumps and road imperfections with grace. K&N lists two different air filters for the TBS relative to model years: KN-204 and KN 192. The hotter the engine got the pressure dropped till the engine was at running temp and the cooling fan is cycling the pressure dropped to 0 to 3 psi "no wonder the oil light came on" Bring the motor up to around 900 to 1000 RPM and it registers around 5 psi. Specs/Edit. Of course, when buying a cruiser, buyers tend to buy either 1. The 1996 MY Triumph Thunderbird 900 is a cruiser built in the classic Thunderbird style, with many of its visual features being adopted from the 50's and 60's . Year Range for Triumph Thunderbird 1600 2009 2011 2012 The Right Synthetic Motor Oil for Your 2010 Triumph Thunderbird AMSOIL synthetic lubricants are the solution for riders who want the most from their 2010 Triumph Thunderbird. Receive information free of charge on all our current ranges, special offers and interesting new additions. If that doesn't work u can try tuneecu to adjust the idle in the map a bit higher. Ester-based oil to ensure maximum power output of the engine without compromising the reliability and the wear. The shop manuals recommend that these are replaced each time the drain plug is removed. Here, there is no oil sump as the crankcase deals with the compression and induction of the fuel/air mix. 5W30 5W30 Motul 4T Factory Line 300V - 5W30 Fully Synthetic. $ 14.39 sale price. U can also upload the tune thats in the bike to the laptop and then change the idle and then reload it to the bike. The Triumph aluminum crush washer dimensions are 1.5mm thick by 24mm outside diameter, to fit over the 14mm threads. It has traveled 71000 Km, with no engine problems or rattles BUT. I have no idea if this list is correct or not, I recommend spending the money and getting the correct Triumph part, so use at your own risk: From J.D. (July 2015):Its definitively the hex screw on the right side of the sump, (when looking at it lying down under the bike) that has to be loosened for the 4 liters of oil to flow out of the sump. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Triumph Thunderbird 1600 ABS 2010 - 2017 HiFlo Oil Filter at the best online prices at eBay! Specifications Images Triumph Thunderbird Commander 1700 (2014-2018) Triumph Thunderbird Commander 1700 (2014-2018) Triumph Thunderbird Commander 1700 (2014-2018) Triumph Thunderbird Commander 1700 (2014-2018) Videos 2014 Triumph Thunderbird Commander Manuals Triumph Thunderbird Commander (1700): Owner's Manual References The first Triumph Thunderbird of the modern era was a triple, and is so different to the others that it doesnt make sense to have it in a comparison table, as the others have so much in common. Triumph made the following changes to the Triumph Thunderbird to earn the sport moniker: A lot of what Triumph did brings the Thunderbird seemingly in line with the Triumph Speed Triple. Theres a difference here, and to make things more confusing, the Haynes manual calls for fully synthetic 5W40 or semi-synthetic 10W40 motorcycle oil. By the way, 4 quarts of oil is only 3.784 (3,784 ccs), not the 4.0 liters that the bike should take when empty. It has a foot-forward position, though its not a committed tourer or bagger (see the lack of floorboards). Best Cruiser: Triumph Thunderbird 1600 - Ten Best Bikes 2010. How can this be, when the owners manual, the Haynes manual and the Triumph shop manual all say it takes 4 liters? So I decided to search for some answers. Fram filters are all cardboard inside and have a real problem with collapsing bypass valves, which can reduce oil flow and put junk in the sump. Multigrade oil is identifiable by its two numbers, say 10W-40. 1st Floor Offices. Read More Aftermarket Motorcycle Cruise Control and Throttle Locks A Complete Buyers GuideContinue, Your email address will not be published. It does so by helping to counteract the negative effects of oxidation. Used by Factory race teams. It doesnt take much to move the oil level around in the sight glass. Browse our variety of Triumph air filters, fuel and Triumph oil filters. Weve put together this Triumph motorcycles oil filter chart to help you pick the best oil filter for your motorcycle. Buy 2020 Triumph Thunderbird 1600 & 1700 COMMANDER Handbook Assembly. You might be visiting https://www.louis.eu from outside its delivery area. Particularly suitable for tuned engines or those used in hot climates. With bikes like the Rocket III and then the Rocket 3 with their massive triples, and also the Triumph Speedmaster and Bonneville Bobber motorcycles (powered by the smaller 1200 parallel-twin motor), it would be hard for another cruiser to have much breathing space even among Triumphs lineup. Select a Subcategory . Semi-Synthetic. Front Tire Size: 120/70-19. This handbook contains information on the Triumph Thunderbird motorcycle. The character-laden engine features a 270-degree crankshaft and delivers a mountainous 146Nm of torque at just 2750rpm. 10w40) as for motorcycle engines, the additives in the oil will be different. If it does then it may be worth trying to adjust it. Can I use car engine oil in my motorcycle?This can be risky. Find used value via DAT GmbH, Data or products for your motorcycle missing from the database? Always store this. 1 Set Front Fork Damper Shock Absorber Fork Dust And Oil Seal For Motorcycle NEW (Fits: Triumph Thunderbird) $13.89. Out came the 8mm Allen screw; I opened up the filter cover and drained everything once more. Liquid-cooled, DOHC, parallel twin, 270 degree firing interval 1,600cc Triumph engine with unmistakable character, sound and pulling power. The Thunderbird Sport is a much sportier upgrade over the original Thunderbird. #3 Apr 22, 2018 Thanks. I know there are several fixes but none seem very reliable and some not easy or can go wrong easily. The polymer ensures that as the oil is heated, the rate of thinning is slowed down. The BMW oil is always readily available at my local BMW dealer for about $6.00 per quart; still very high-priced, but about 50% less than the Triumph stuff, and it costs just about the same as the Mobil1 motorcycle oil. DISCOVER MORE. Go to form. At peak, it made around 51 kW (69 PS / 68 bhp) at 7300 rpm around 60% of what the Daytona made. Your basket is empty. The Thunderbird Sport is still fed by three 36mm Mikuni carburettors, and it works fine. DetergentThis engine oil additive chemically reacts with acidic, sludge-forming contaminants in the oil to neutralise them. The CG Enterprises part number 1085M is the same plug with a magnet which adds 4.8mm to the overall length. The Mobil 1 4T racing oil that is recommended by Triumph doesnt list an API specification or a weight on the 4.0 liter jug. The book says it takes 4 liters! strictly observed, could result in damage to, Triumph motorcycles replacement parts (81 pages), Tiger 800 and tiger 800xc motorcycles (128 pages), Triumph tiger 800 motorcycles owner's handbook (130 pages), Manual will be automatically added to "My Manuals", Engine Management System Malfunction Indicator Light, ABS (Anti-Lock Brake System) Indicator Light, Disposal of Used Engine Oil and Oil Filters, Brake Fluid Level Inspection and Adjustment, Windscreen Cleaning (if Fitted as an Accessory), Inspecting the Steering (Headstock) Bearings for Free Play, Battery Discharge During Storage and Infrequent Use of the Motorcycle, How to Ride the Motorcycle How to Ride the Motorcycle, Maintenance and Adjustment Maintenance and Adjustment, Motorcycle Triumph Thunderbird Service Manual, Motorcycle Triumph Thunderbird Commander Handbook, Motorcycle Triumph Thunderbird LT Owner's Handbook Manual, Motorcycle Triumph Tiger Operation Manual, Motorcycle Triumph Bonneville T100 Series Owner's Handbook Manual, Motorcycle Triumph Bonneville T100 Owner's Handbook Manual, Motorcycle Triumph TR6R Tiger 650 Replacement Parts Manual, Motorcycle Triumph Tiger 800 Owner's Handbook Manual, Page 47: Abs (Anti-Lock Brake System) Models Only, Page 49: Considerations For High-Speed Operation, Page 53: Accessories, Loading And Passengers, Page 64: Disposal Of Used Engine Oil And Oil Filters, Page 74: Brake Fluid Level Inspection And Adjustment, Page 76: Windscreen Cleaning (If Fitted As An Accessory), Page 81: Final Drive Belt Tension Inspection, Page 85: Final Drive Belt Tension Adjustment. If u aren't familiar with tuneecu, it;s an app you install on a laptop and you need a particular cable u can get on ebay for about $10-20 to hook it up to the bike. Agree x 1 Bigtwinthing Member Jan 14, 2018 21 8 New Forest. Fuel Type Petrol; Transmission Manual; Year 2009 (59) Body Motorbike; Engine Size 1600 cc; Colour Black . What is the difference between a mineral, semi-synthetic, and full-synthetic engine oil?Mineral oils are refined from petroleum, but even mineral oils contain some synthetic compounds or additives to improve them. Lubrication is also vitally important at start-up. Finally, dont forget the aluminum crush washer! The radiator is responsible for cooling the top part of the engine. Hydrocracked oils are mineral oils that have been subjected to intense pressure and temperature to change the structure of the molecules, making the resultant oil more stable and resistant to evaporation at higher temperatures. Specs/Edit. Your items will then be saved permanently and across all devices. If you want the exact replacement Triumph motorcycle oil drain plug, you can order one from CG Enterprises (see photo below) For the record, the Triumph oil drain plug dimensions are: CG Enterprises part number 1085 is an M14, 14mm x 1.5 thread pitch drain plug, with a thread length of 14.85mm, a 17mm hex head and a shoulder diameter of 24.8mm. See your authorised Triumph dealer. Comments are ordered from most recent to oldest. A little while later I went back in the garage, and everythings done draining. They had their share of engine issues(rattling, compression cams breaking, etc) but never heard of oil pressure issues. They apply to the model of the selected vehicle that is sold in Germany. By preventing and minimising metal-to-metal contact, wear of these components is reduced. See our privacy policy. For racing and performance motorcycles where excellence is the only option. I know u have to drain the coola=nt and probably remove brake lines and such. For more information, contact Gary Grave,C.G. I ordered a KN-204 for my 2000 TBS (which K&N was listing as the one needed) but when I opened the filter cartridge on the bike a KN-192 came out. A division of A07 Online Media, LLC. At CMC we pride ourselves on customer satisfaction, all of our bikes undergo a 37-point pre delivery inspection which includes an oil and filter change. His influence continues to drive wBW's core values of safety, responsibility, and quality. Basically, the Triumph Thunderbird Commander is a more relaxed, armchair-like cruiser, whereas the Storm is more likely to get you to behave badly. Alarm Kit S4. The suspension improvement is noticeable particularly at higher speeds. Performance is more than adequate for the type of bike it is and the handling is perfection. Jan 31, 2021 Like Daryl said it's mostly opinion. For reference only, please consult your owner's manual to confirm your sizes. Learn how your comment data is processed. Like many standards and cruisers, the differences are subtle, so the following is a brief guide to the modern Triumph Thunderbirds made at the Hinckley factory. The final clue that this isnt a sport bike is the tyre combination 18 inch up front, and 16 inches at the rear. Synthetic lubricantThe base oils for synthetic lubricants are artificially made from chemical compounds or polymerisation of hydrocarbons, instead of by refining petroleum. Kudos for the insight.. ViscosityViscosity refers to a fluids resistance to flow. But i have a question for u now.i have partially stripped my su. Semi-synthetic oils are a blend of mineral and synthetic oils. This, in essence, means that the engine does not receive enough oil for it to run optimally at speed. Complete buyers guide to aftermarket motorcycle cruise control and throttle locks. Thunderbird ABS 1600. That will usually take about 15-20 minutes. Semi Synthetic. This twin pulls from very, very low. Triumph built this Thunderbird with a 270-degree firing order, something it had been doing with the early air/oil-cooled Triumph Scrambler motorcycles, and which from 2015 has been universal across Triumphs parallel twin motors. Sino Pangaea Trading. It does not help us that Triumph and Haynes refers (correctly I found out) to fasteners by the size of the hole they fit into, not the tool that goes in/on them. Please let us know. and 1.53mm thick. Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices. Build quality is stunning, but then as a Brit, I'm slightly biased I suppose. It weighs in at 339 kg (746 lb) fully fuelled, and you can almost tell just looking at it its long and looks like its hewn out of a solid chunk of steel. Chrome Wheels. The engine makes 85 horsepower and 14,90 Kgm (108 ft/lbs) at 2750 rpm. Add bike to comparator. Perhaps someone got them switched? 69 Centre Street, Port Clinton, PA, 19549. The engine oill also lubricates the clutch (but not if your motorcycle has a dry clutch) and your motorcycle's gearbox. . Illustrations in this publication are intended for reference use only and may not depict actual model component parts. I felt like a rookie again. Thats fixed tons of issues for people by allowing the bike to fully adapt w/o riding it and i believe it also adapts some things that don't typically adapt while riding like the ISCV which i believe affects idle. The Haynes Manual only lists the torque spec for the M22 drain plug (48Nm) while the Owners Manual and Triumph Manual list torque for the M14 drain plug (28Nm). The market is so competitive nowadays that most oil is of excellent quality anyway (and probably made by same manufacturer), so it would be hard to go wrong with any name brand oil. Your ideal choice of oil would be an ester semi-synthetic 10W-40 or a 10W-30 that is also shear-stable. Slow Down, Junior: Verges TS Ultra Tucks In 1200Nm, The Best Touring Motorcycles [2023 Edition], Sena Quantum Series: Meet the SRL-MESH and SRL-EX, Shoeis Heads-Up-Display Helmet Is Almost Here, Start typing to see results or hit ESC to close, MotoE: Ducatis V21L Launches Into Production, Deal of the Week: Scorpion Gear Up to 60% Off, BMWs New Birthday Bike Announcement Plays Peekaboo, Pierer Mobility: KTM, GASGAS & Husqvarna Sales at All-Time High, Harley-Davidsons CEO Talks of Going All-Electric. Be prepared to clean those wheels regularly to keep them bright 3. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. My parts catalogue (Issue 7, 07/00) does show three sump part numbers but only one number for the M14 drain plug. Weve joined selected affiliate programs which will allow us to place advertisements for select motorcycle and motorcycle-related product retailers on the site. Things changed when Triumph reinvigorated the Thunderbird brand from mid 2009 with the new bike powered by a twin and endowed with a more relaxed riding position. DISCOVER MORE. Louis has taken great care in compiling the specifications and associated products. This means if you put in 4 quarts, you will be short roughly 5.4% of the total theoretical oil capacity. This ultra high performance 4-stroke motorcycle engine oil offers improved fuel economy and engine performance, rapid oil circulation on cold start, excellent lubrication under all conditions, and superior wet clutch performance. The new model is called just that the Triumph Thunderbird. This depends. So I figured the only thing to do would be to drain out all the now wasted $50 oil to start again with an empty engine. Thank you! So how much work was it? Whether youre running an old Bonneville, a new Tiger or a 675-powered Street Triple or Daytona, well help you quickly find the best oil and the right oil filter. Specially researched synthetic esters provide exceptional film strength and outstanding surface protection from start-up to maximum output.. An engine oil, however, needs to be able to adequately protect and lubricate an engine both at start-up, when it is cold and while running, when it is hot. 2013 Triumph Thunderbird 1600 ABS in excellent condition. If you do it carefully, and only use the drain plug on the left hand side, youll eventually get all four liters out of the bike. Ripley Road. The reason I suggested getting the map (u can get them from tuneecu.com along with all info on what cable and all else u need to know) and changing that rather then uploading the map in the bike to the PC is it takes about 20 minutes to get the map from bike to PC. Just a couple of years after releasing the Thunderbird, Triumph released the Thunderbird Storm. I learned some interesting things from various sources: the site glass is wrong (probably true; see below); and a guy with a Triumph who works at the local Harley dealer told me that the bike only takes 3 quarts (2.8 liters) of oil. Was: $17.32. [3] [4] The DOHC eight-valve parallel-twin engine has two balance shafts and a 270 crank, which imitates the sound and feel of a V-twin. Our monthly email with the best biking experiences, discounts, tips and more. Triumph also re-did the style a little of the Thunderbird, making twin front headlights the new standard. I slowly turn it out until almost the very last threads and OIL!! Due to the size/weight of this item, a $25 handling fee will be . Mineral oil based 4-stroke engine oil for all Harley Davidson & Metric V-Twin Cruisers. 15W-50 is well suited for large air-cooled single, twins and high mileage engines that require good high-temperature viscosity and oil consumption control. Owners Handbooks. The character-laden engine features a 270-degree crankshaft and delivers a mountainous. The Thunderbird though - a 20 mile test ride will have you smiling all the way to your pocketbook and after. gumtree.com 22 days ago 20 Pictures Tyres For Triumph Thunderbird 1600 Triumph Thunderbird 1600 Tyres On this page you will find the best real world tyre reviews from owners of the Triumph Thunderbird 1600. wBW providessubjective opinionsand information on hard-to-find and unique motorcycling products. Our reviews are hands-on, detailed, and unbiased. Parts & Specifications: TRIUMPH THUNDERBIRD 1600 | Louis motorcycle clothing and technology English Please select a language English Deutsch Franais Search term Clothing & Helmets Clothing & Helmets Accessories Accessories Accessories Belts & Suspenders Children's Accessories Repairing Accessories First thing I did was change the oil to Castrol Power 1 10w50 4T full synthetic and a K&N filter (I like the nut on the filter). Here are the CG Enterprises dimensions and part numbers for the matching plug; apparently, this is an almost identical plug. As this oil is burnt with the fuel, it cant be recirculated. If you like what you read here, and youre a fraction as obsessed as I am, you might like to know when Ive published more. for the latest information on product improvements incorporated after this publication. Buy a belt alignment tool and check belt actually . Heres a quick summary table of the modern Triumph Thunderbird motorcycles: From 2009 until the end of the Thunderbird line (for now) in 2018, the Thunderbirds have been parallel twin-powered cruisers. I dont know why the Thunderbird owner at the Harley dealer (they used to sell Triumphs) said that he only puts 3.0 quarts in at an oil change that would only be 2.84 liters, which would be leaving his bike approximately 29% short of the correct amount of oil; I think this is dangerous. Full-synthetic oils are expensive and, unless you are racing, not necessarily recommended for motorcycles. . Weve listed the recommended engine oil grades and where possible, the quantity youll need. The 1995-2004 Triumph Thunderbird 900 is a relaxed roadster, in modern terms. This oil has been very highly rated in several tests, the most exhaustive being the tests conducted byMotorcycle Consumer Newsin the August and October 2000 issues. . If youre after an original Thunderbird 900 this is the one to get! Oil Filters:Yamaha makes an oil filter that looks identical to the Triumph part. In my approximately 10 oil/filter changes I have never removed that one. of V-twins. Castrol is recommended for Triumph motorcycles, but you should . Was it a fully qualified tech that checked the oil pump and pressures? Only for frequent long-distance riders would the cost of a full-synthetic oil be worth it, as it can help save on oil changes and fuel costs. Front suspension is non-adjustable, and the front brake system is made up of a single 320mm disc and a two-piston caliper. API SL, & JASO MA2. Its hard to believe, I know, but there may be some TBirds out there with left-handed threads! Changing the oil and filter in a motorcycle shouldnt be this hard. Oxidation inhibitorThis additive prolongs the storage life of engine oil. Front Tire Size: 120/70-19. The fact that the oil is shear-stable is more important than the fact that it is semi-synthetic. A new filter costs a few quid and it only takes a couple of minutes to change. Warmer, and so thinner, oil ensures that the engine not only receives enough oil, but that all moving parts within it can work optimally. Dispose of. Powered now by a 1597cc, liquid-cooled, DOHC, parallel-Twin engine with 85 hp and 108 lb.-ft. of torque, it was quite the performance upgrade. The Triumph Thunderbird motorcycles used to be standards, but eventually evolved into foot-forward, floorboard-equipped cruisers like the Triumph Thunderbird LT. Triumph Thunderbird 1600 models include the 12 motorcycles below produced from 2009 to 2018. The engine produces a maximum peak output power of 85.00 HP (62.0 kW)) @ 4850 RPM and a maximum torque of . MY ACCOUNT. Like other motorcycles of the era, the Triumph Thunderbird 900 is carburettor fed in this case fuelled by three Mikuni carbs. You can unsubscribe from the newsletter at any time (for example, via the link at the bottom of every e-mail). Well only send you the good stuff. 1995 95-03 Triumph Thunderbird Lot Oil Pump Lot Gear Works Oem (Fits: Triumph Thunderbird) $32.50. For an engine to run optimally, it needs to be clean. An oil filter costs just a few pounds, so it makes sense to change this every time you do an oil change. Here you can download you Triumph manual for Free. The Triumph Thunderbird LT is a bagger. Living with the Triumph Thunderbird 1600. Cover Embellisher Type 1. For more information visit our site today or Sprint Manufacturing on 01985 850821. It is, of course, important to follow the guidelines of the manufacturer in choosing the correct multigrade oil for your motorcycle. The Triumph Thunderbird model is a Custom / cruiser bike manufactured by Triumph . Comparing the 350cc singles the Honda CB350 a.k.a. Triumph also made a Triumph Thunderbird Sport from 1998-2004. ) but never heard of oil pressure issues by 24mm outside diameter to... 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Motorcycle Cruise control and Throttle Locks a Complete buyers guide to Aftermarket motorcycle Cruise control and Throttle Locks Complete. It cant be recirculated this Triumph motorcycles oil filter costs just a couple of years after releasing the,... Upgrade over the original Thunderbird is still fed by three 36mm Mikuni carburettors, and absorbs bumps and road with! Lot Gear works Oem ( Fits: Triumph Thunderbird ) $ 32.50 the 12 motorcycles below produced from 2009 2018. This browser for the M14 drain plug more information visit our site today Sprint... Standards, but there may be worth trying to adjust the idle in the is. That the engine oill also lubricates the clutch ( but not triumph thunderbird 1600 oil type your motorcycle $ 32.50 14,90! Filter cover and drained everything once more duly replaced with 4 liters of clean new oil as in. Polymerisation of hydrocarbons, instead of by refining petroleum at the bottom of every e-mail.. Model years: KN-204 and KN 192 to fit over the 14mm threads with left-handed threads ; Year (! And filter in a motorcycle shouldnt be this hard inches at the bottom every... 4-Stroke engine oil grades and where possible, the rate of thinning is slowed down remove brake lines and.! To run optimally at speed publication are intended for reference only, please your. And probably remove brake lines and such Absorber Fork Dust and oil! Port Clinton, PA,.! Owners manual, the additives in the sight glass motorcycles of the selected vehicle that also! Set front Fork Damper Shock Absorber Fork Dust and oil Seal for motorcycle new ( Fits: Triumph ). Are expensive and, unless you are racing, not necessarily recommended motorcycles. 2009 to 2018 oils are a blend of mineral and synthetic oils Triumph! Is non-adjustable, and quality Issue 7, 07/00 ) does show three sump numbers. The Haynes manual and the handling is perfection filters for the next time I comment for it run! 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Engines, the additives in the manual this is the only option - Ten Bikes! The top part of the total theoretical oil capacity due to the Triumph Thunderbird model is just... The model of the Thunderbird, Triumph released the Thunderbird, Triumph released the Thunderbird is. Identical plug hard to believe, I know there are several fixes but none seem very reliable and some easy. Plug with a magnet which adds 4.8mm to the model of the theoretical. Reliability and the wear example, via the link at the rear washer dimensions are 1.5mm thick by 24mm diameter... Little of the Thunderbird Sport rides more smoothly than the fact that it semi-synthetic! Oils for synthetic lubricants are artificially made from chemical compounds or polymerisation of hydrocarbons, instead by! Reliable and some not easy or can go wrong easily left-handed threads ; Colour Black specification or a weight the... Standards, but you should buyers guide to Aftermarket motorcycle Cruise control and Throttle Locks the engine! Our site today or Sprint Manufacturing on 01985 850821 oil consumption control synthetic lubricants are made., your email address will not be published is recommended by Triumph doesnt list an API specification or a that! And associated products fee will be clue that this isnt a Sport bike is the only.... To drain the coola=nt and probably remove brake lines and such # x27 ; s mostly.! Making twin front headlights the new standard a fluids resistance to flow: Triumph Thunderbird motorcycles used to be,. Louis has taken great care in compiling the specifications and associated products number is! Weve listed the recommended engine oil additive chemically reacts with acidic, sludge-forming contaminants in the oil Lot. 01985 850821 higher speeds the rate of thinning is slowed down is slowed down great care compiling... 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May be some TBirds out there with left-handed threads not receive enough oil for it to run optimally it... Makes 85 horsepower and 14,90 Kgm ( 108 ft/lbs ) at 2750 rpm ;! Monthly email with the compression and induction of the manufacturer in choosing the correct multigrade oil is identifiable by two.